At this year’s Anime NYC, we and other members of the press had the incredible opportunity to sit down with Shoji Kawamori for a conversation spanning Macross, the changes within the animation industry, Kawamori-san’s personal inspirations, and his messages to prospective fans of more recent Macross series. Kawamori-san is most known for creating the Macross franchise, but he’s done ample work on mecha and mecha-inspired designs for a variety of other franchises. One notable example of this is his product design work on the Diaclone Kawarobot, which became the basis for Optimus Prime and the Transformers franchise.
Origins and Creative Process
Shoji Kawamori-san is a creator of many forms, with his mark being made across anime creation, screenwriting, mecha design, and product design. Even just for the Macross franchise, there are many, many series to pick from, and Kawamori-san noted that he “can’t really pick any one series” as a favorite since he falls in love with each one during the production process. Keeping in mind how prolific and thoughtful he is, members of the press asked him about his creative process, especially what inspires his work and how he thinks about it. Kawamori-san explained how he finds inspiration to create so many incredible works and properties over the years.
“I’m the type of person that always likes to create original anime, as opposed to adaptations. So I seek to be inspired by real events and real things. For example, if I wanted to do a series that involves some sort of scientific thing, I want to draw from actual science as opposed to science fiction, something that already exists, something that’s already or just been discovered. If I wanted to do something that involves nature or ecology, I would like to go to an actual exotic location where there’s still bountiful nature, to that physical location, to almost research or do a location hunt. Because otherwise, I feel like what I would produce would be kind of a fictional adaptation instead. So, if I draw from actual things, it’s more like I’m just portraying a side of reality. Also, in terms of getting inspired by other artistic genres and forms, if I don’t have enough inspiration, I do — even here in New York, I already went to see a musical, so I do enjoy going to the theater. But because live action movies and anime, I feel, are genres that are too close to what I already do, I try to seek further outward for my inspiration, even from an artistic standpoint.”
Kawamori-san also indicated that some early Disney movies were a basis of inspiration, specifically Peter Pan and Fantasia (he also noted that as far as recent Disney is concerned, Moana is a favorite). And similarly to those works that inspired him, Macross became a long-lasting franchise with multiple iterations and multiple projects that it inspired in its own right. I asked Kawamori-san about this long lasting impact and legacy and what was perhaps the reason behind it, which he gave his interesting perspective on.
“[ . . . ] I grew up very much influenced by Space Battleship Yamato and Gundam. I really love those two works. And one of the things that I definitely wanted to focus on was making something completely different and unique from either of those two standout works. And so that was my first thought. I think what helped Macross stay alive and incredible for so long is the fact that it was so unique and so different from the other existing really popular series. Something that made it unique is that I wanted mecha that were more realistic and would definitely function more realistically in terms of battle machines — in particular the Valkyries. And also, instead of waging war with weapons, I would wage war through song. I think those two things in particular had never before been seen in anime. So I think that’s what helped it endure so long.”
That enduring legacy is only one facet of how Kawamori-san inspires and helps lead future generations of creators and animators. He also explained how he helps assist the next generation of animators and directors.
“I guess for me, I’m not one to really work closely hand-in-hand with any one person for an extremely long amount of time. I feel like my role is going into a technical school or a vocational school or a university, and teaching aspiring animators or illustrators about how to come up with original concepts and ideas, how to develop them into stories, what originality is, and how to bring originality. If I can teach, and through my talking, inspire them to then go out and come up with their own new creations, I feel that I’ve fulfilled my role. In terms of how to develop multidimensional world building, and so forth.”
Inspiring Transformers and More
Shoji Kawamori-san helped pioneer the concept of a transforming mecha, something he made ample use of with Variable Fighters like Valkyries in Macross and something which was pivotal in the creation, development, and popularization of the Transformers franchise. He explained that initially he didn’t imagine that his work would go on to inspire other works of such magnitude, but that with Transformers specifically he did work that directly fed into different concepts within the franchise.
“I was so focused on making my own anime that I really didn’t think about whether it would inspire other works at all at the time. But in terms of Transformers specifically [ . . . ] I had already been doing some work in terms of the Diaclone Kawarobot, which, of course, became Transformers here — evolved into Transformers. I had nothing to do with the storyline itself, but in terms of developing the mecha and designing the mecha, that’s definitely something that I worked on.
It’s interesting because in terms of the Diaclone series specifically, I did work on that pretty much solo, but when they started developing the Kawarobot line, I was only one of several designers and staff on that project. I didn’t design all of them. I just designed a number of the transforming mecha, but definitely in terms of Transformers. The fact that you took real cars that became then transformed into robots, that was something that always interested me for a very long time. The one thing that did bother me about the Kawarobots is I had fun developing how they would transform, but there were all these paradoxes, for example that in the robot there would be no seat. The car seat would disappear. Where would the engine go? That always bothered me. So, when I designed the Valkyries for Macross, I always kept in mind that everything that you had originally would somehow still have a role or would still exist physically in the robot as well.
And I don’t know if it actually directly influenced or inspired it at all, but I often hear from young people, ‘Wow, Macross is so much like Top Gun.’ And I would say, ‘No, no, no, no, no. Macross came first, and then came Top Gun.’ So, I really don’t know if there is a direct correlation or any influence that Macross had on Top Gun, but I do hear that a lot.”
Another concept that Kawamori-san helped pioneer is the notion of a virtual idol, something he brought to light within Macross Plus with virtual idol characters like Sharon Apple. To me, there are some clear parallels between virtual idols and modern day VTubers, with the functional aspects carrying over similarly to how they do with transforming mecha and Transformers. I asked Kawamori-san whether he felt those virtual idol characters helped inspire the idea of a VTuber, whether in whole or in part. He agreed that the two are similar but was unsure on the matter of direct inspiration.
“You know, I don’t know if Sharon and some of the other virtual idol characters I created directly influenced the development or the rise of VTubers. But I do notice that they do very similar things. And I think the one thing I can say with certainty is that back when I created Macross Plus, I guess it was maybe 25 years ago or more, a lot of the people around me, my colleagues and staff, were like, ‘Oh, no way, this is never going to happen.’ And the fact that it actually now exists, I think it became reality a lot quicker than I anticipated.”
On the matter of the evolving technology of the industry in general, especially the shift to modern streaming services as opposed to tapes and TV, Kawamori-san explained that there were both good and bad elements to the change and evolution of the industry.
“I certainly think it’s very good and very positive that you can watch so much more content, and that you can watch it almost everywhere around the world. But conversely, also, I feel like that’s led to maybe an overall drop in the concentration or focus of an individual viewer in terms of really getting into a single entire series in depth. In particular, I feel like fans and even general viewers these days focus on bits and pieces and compartmentalize or divide an anime, or even anime series, or even an anime film into little parts. They just like the mecha of this work, or they like an idol thing, or they just like moe, instead of just enjoying all of the diversity that exists.”
A Message to First Time Fans
Longtime fans of Shoji Kawamori-san and the Macross franchise hardly need convincing to keep engaging with its content. This is why the Macross screenings at this year’s Anime NYC brought such a large number of dedicated fans who readily took in hours of nostalgia. For newer fans though, there are more recent series. It’s been eight years since Macross Delta aired on Japanese television. Now, it came to Disney+ this year, along with multiple other Macross anime series. Kawamori-san had these words to say to potential fans encountering the series for the first time.
“I think one thing that I’d like viewers to focus on, fans to focus on, and hopefully they notice on their own, is that I wrote and created Macross Delta as a series where teamwork is…I don’t even know if you want to call it a theme or just kind of an underlying concept. So, the Delta itself, the Delta Troop, is a team. Their nemeses are a team, and even the Valkyries are a team. So, I wanted to show the interrelationships and the individual characters or even Mecha collaborating with each other.”
We’d like to thank Shoji Kawamori for taking the time to have such a fantastic conversation with members of the press. We learned a lot about his inspirations and mindset and those sorts of conversations are invaluable. As mentioned earlier, Macross Delta and other Macross anime series are available to stream on Disney+.
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